Almost immediately after the liberation of Kherson in November 2022, President Volodymyr Zelenskyi went to the de-occupied city, primarily to meet and reward the military. Brigadier General Oleksandr Tarnavskyi was among those thanked by the president. It was he who led the counteroffensive that freed the right bank of the Kherson region from occupation last year. It was a successful operation of the defense forces, which gave Ukrainians even more hope for victory.
In exactly one year, the situation will change dramatically. After yet another counteroffensive, which was not so successful for Ukraine, the press will write about Bankova's plans to change military leaders. The names of the head commissar Valery Zaluzhnyi and the generals close to him, including Oleksandr Tarnavskyi, were mentioned. The latter says restrainedly: "I don't know if they want to change it." I am ready for all conditions." And it makes it clear that at the front, the military is not into political battles at all.
Little is known about General Tarnavskyi. A military personnel who passed all levels of service to the commander of the operational-strategic group of troops "Tavria". Today, this is a difficult part of the front, which includes Avdiyivka, Mar'inka, and Robotyne, engulfed in fire.
Tarnavskyi is non-public, having given only a few interviews during almost two years of full-scale war. It is noticeable that he is uncomfortable in front of the camera. At the same time, the general is distinguished by simplicity, brevity and typical military down-to-earthness. He frankly says that the next year may be even more difficult, the Russians are a strong enemy, there are many of them and they learn very quickly.
For security reasons, we could not go to him to talk in person. Tarnavskyi is constantly at the front, which is why he gave a zoom interview to the BBC.
About the hottest spots
BBC : Tell us what is happening in your direction, what are the hottest spots in the area of responsibility now?
Oleksandr Tarnavskyi : The situation in our area is extremely difficult. The enemy intensified its actions almost along the entire battle line. We are clearly aware that his strategic goal is the liquidation of Ukrainian statehood.
Therefore, the Russian leadership wants to somehow realize all these intentions by the end of this year. At a minimum, this is the capture of the settlement of Avdiyivka. A more ambitious goal is to enter the administrative borders of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions and capture the territories lost by the Russians during our offensive in the Zaporozhye region.
BBC : You mentioned Avdiivka, we know that there is a difficult situation there. There was information that reinforcements had been sent there literally in the last few days. Is it so? What is happening there now?
Oleksandr Tarnavskyi : You see, in order to progress in offensive assault actions, there must be maximum provision of both human resources and equipment. Therefore, the enemy has been trying to push through our defenses for the third month, sparing no people, no weapons, no military equipment. He is constantly increasing his efforts to achieve this goal.
BBC : Is it true that reinforcements were sent there literally in the last few days?
Oleksandr Tarnavskyi : Yes. They constantly reinforce. These are mainly units such as "Storm Z", "Storm V".
BBC : And the Ukrainian side? There was information that it was the Ukrainian forces that sent the reinforcements there, because the situation there is very difficult.
Oleksandr Tarnavskyi : We are constantly maneuvering parts, our units. Because you understand, the influx that is operating today both from the north and from the south of Avdiivka - it is impossible to hold this area with one military unit. The situation is constantly changing - both positively and negatively. If it is negative, then we react as much as possible with units, parts, and directly with the means that we have today.
BBC : How serious is the environmental threat in Avdiivka now?
Oleksandr Tarnavskyi : You know how - there is no "serious" or "not serious" situation in war. She is always serious. In Avdiivka, the enemy's efforts are concentrated in two directions. In general, the attack by the enemy is carried out in the direction of the main strike, as well as in diverting directions. He concentrated a large number of personnel.
But I will tell you - with those forces and means, better success could be achieved. I think that our soldiers are confidently conducting defensive actions. By the way, I want to say, active. Not only do we protect the territory, we also react immediately to regain the area that we have lost.
But there are objective and subjective reasons. If you stay in a clear field, there is an opportunity to take a step back or to the side somewhere to save personnel and equipment, pull it into a bag and then destroy the enemy. And then go to the previous position.
BBC : As for Maryinka, we have seen photos from drones, the city is practically destroyed. The Russians control most of it. Does it make sense to keep Maryinka at all?
(The interview took place on December 23. On December 25, Russia announced that it had captured Maryinka, the Ukrainian side officially denied this information).
Oleksandr Tarnavskyi : You know, when I am asked the question of whether it makes sense to keep something or whether it makes sense to do something, I will say: we are defending our land today.
And not through tyranny or liquidation of our personnel, but through skillful actions - through maneuver, fire, movement, misleading the enemy. Therefore, today the question is not like this - to leave or what. Today, we are clearly aware that if somewhere everything is destroyed or there is no possibility, our task, first of all, is to save personnel. And we take all measures to ensure that it is not "at any cost".
And Maryinka - yes, you are right. Marinka was practically wiped off the ground by the enemy. Today there is only one... you know, even the foundation is not there in some areas. Maryinka is a small town, a suburb of Donetsk, and battles for Maryinka have been going on for days and months. Active hostilities continue there for the second year. By the way, if you compare Maryinka with Avdiivka, then the enemy does not really want to enter Avdiivka. He wants to bypass her in order to avoid fighting in the city - because it will complicate his problems even more. We observed this during the battles for Bakhmut.
BBC : What is the situation in Robotyn? Are there also attempts to surround the Russians?
Oleksandr Tarnavskyi : The difficulty lies in the fact that today the enemy has become more active on the entire front, and directly in my operational zone. Somewhere he determined the direction of the main blow, somewhere distracting. So, as for Avdiivka, it is in the direction of their main attack. Maryinka is another direction. Novomykhailivka is, for example, a distracting direction. The Novopavlov direction also has its own purpose.
What is Robotine? This is the area where the enemy had losses in the territory. Where today he presses, conducts active assault actions. But during the enemy's offensive in any area, believe me, there are both positive and negative consequences for them. They are trying to succeed, and it is important for us to hold back and give a clear resistance.
BBC : If we talk about the general situation in your area, have the Ukrainian forces already gone on the defensive?
Oleksandr Tarnavskyi : Ukrainian forces conducted defensive operations in my area. In some areas, we carried out offensive actions and then switched to defense. But this is 15, 20, 30 percent. And in the rest of the areas, we conduct active assault actions.
About the counterattack
BBC : In your opinion, has the situation at the front reached an impasse?
Oleksandr Tarnavskyi : I think not yet. Today, it has accurate logistic results. It should not be forgotten that we are facing one of the strongest armies, which has its own corresponding resource.
The large-scale invasion of the Russian aggressor has been going on for almost two years now, and almost all analysts have given us forecasts that we will not be able to resist. And if we can, it won't be more than a month or two. And the fact that the enemy has not achieved the stated goals so far is already a significant success of the Ukrainian people and its army.
The main mistake of the enemy is that he did not count on such a unification of our nation, on the support that continues today. Therefore, if someone says that this is a dead end - no, it is not a dead end, this is our state today.
BBC : Now there is a lot of talk about the results of the counteroffensive, that they are not as expected. General Zaluzhnyi said that calculations based on NATO textbooks are no longer relevant, and the Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council advised that all NATO textbooks be sent to the archives. In your opinion, what went wrong that the counteroffensive did not produce the results that everyone expected and talked about so loudly?
Oleksandr Tarnavskyi : At the beginning of the counteroffensive, everyone talked a lot. During the offensive, everyone also spoke and continues to speak. Our job, soldiers, is to complete the appropriate tasks.
We understand that one of the main reasons is a well-prepared defense. I will say that the enemy was preparing. And I repeat that this is one of the strongest armies in the world. Its defense consisted not of one, but of several lines. The enemy built these defensive lines not in one month, but during the period when we were preparing for offensive actions. Because intelligence works around the clock.
The enemy uses its strengths - manpower, minefields, prepared positions, as well as the readiness to mercilessly throw its personnel to death. Advantage in aviation. Very high density of minefields, saturation of the enemy's battle formations, anti-tank weapons, means of radio-electronic warfare and attack drones. And also - the impossibility of our full use of armored vehicles, which made it difficult for us to actively advance, and also affected the speed of offensive actions.
The most important thing is that our warrior was not afraid, he did what he had to do. Yes, it was slower, much slower than we have seen in previous wars, read in books or been told. Today, tactics are changing, the ratio of forces and means is changing, and the means of influencing both the attacking army and the defending army are changing.
Radio-electronic work has intensified today - it's both kamikaze drones and surveillance. This is the war of the future. We all learn from these mistakes, draw conclusions. At the same time, I will say that we may not have overcome that depth, but we made that leap that gives us inspiration for our further offensive actions.
BBC : Now there is a lot of talk about the construction of fortifications by Ukrainian forces. The President set this task. How does it work in your direction?
Oleksandr Tarnavskyi : The most important thing in defense is trenches, dugouts, shelters. Approaches to these shelters for both personnel and equipment. I will say that these issues were conducted, are being conducted, and with the support of the president, they have intensified. Because they strengthened the resources that are involved in training, defined specific boundaries, as well as the responsibilities of officials - both military and civilian. Therefore, everything is carried out according to the defined plan.
BBC : If we compare with the Russians, do they have stronger fortifications or are they about the same?
Oleksandr Tarnavskyi : You know, on those defensive lines where our soldiers are stationed, I will not say that the Russians have it better. What are the Russians superior in? This is the mining of areas in the area. Where they created engineering nodes of barriers. And those concrete structures that prevented the rapid advancement of our servicemen.
But mainly these are areas of mining. Multi-layer minefields were created, complex - both anti-tank and anti-personnel. But we also, at least, put up such lines of defensive boundaries.
About the behavior of Russians
BBC : A full-scale invasion has been going on for almost two years now. How is the behavior of the Russians changing in this war? Does something surprise you? Did they learn something? Has something changed?
Oleksandr Tarnavskyi : War is development. It should not stay in place. I will say frankly, Russians learn very well - from our mistakes, from their mistakes. What do the Russians take? Russians take with their numbers, human masses. Not sparing their human resources, they continue to perform the tasks that are in front of them. Although they really understand that they are losing in some areas, their moral and psychological state is at a very low level.
In general, at the beginning of their assault, the enemy used equipment en masse, but it did not work out for them. Because our minefields worked, our anti-tank weapons worked.
Now we can say that the Russian army borrows a lot from us. He learns quickly and probably adapts, copies those actions that are most effective for us. Even our tactical actions are adopted by the enemy - during the same assault actions in the trenches, when approaching the trenches. For example, very similar attacks began to be carried out in groups - detachments, platoon supported by two, maximum four armored vehicles.
Of course, massed, so-called "meat assaults" by infantry also remain. This is normal for Russians. But they have huge losses of manpower, I would say, 3-5 times (more than Ukrainian losses. - Ed.), and in some areas even more.
Also, the enemy is increasing the use of kamikaze drones, very widely uses ground robotic platforms. The latter is used mainly to transport ammunition to the position. The Russian occupiers are experimenting - they install anti-tank weapons and machine guns on them. And they learn very well, including from our positive actions. Which, on the one hand, pleases us, and on the other, maybe not.
BBC : What is the situation with the weapons of the Ukrainian forces? What is the most lacking in the military in your direction?
Oleksandr Tarnavskyi : Today, the big problem is ammunition of various types and almost all types of ammunition. The issue of ammunition for 122 and 152 millimeter artillery systems is very acute.
I would also like to draw attention to the fact that the enemy, knowing our capabilities regarding the range of damage, placed his artillery units at a critical distance - where we cannot influence his actions. Very quickly, he develops means of radio-electronic warfare, which makes it impossible for us to use high-precision weapons at long ranges. That is, today we have problems in the guidance of long-range ammunition during counter-battery combat.
I especially want to say that the supply of anti-aircraft missile systems such as Stormer, Avenger, Stinger is an urgent issue for combating the air enemy. That is, if there is even a small advantage in the air, it is already an advantage of the enemy over the ground component. And in the conditions of a significant increase in the enemy's use of unmanned aerial vehicles - in particular FPV drones - there is a need to provide our units with means of electronic warfare. We apply - they counteract with EW means. They apply - we oppose. Therefore, we have problems in this direction.
In order to continue offensive assault actions, we would like to have those means that make it possible to demine areas of the area. You know, no matter how much it is - it is not enough.
BBC : You mentioned air superiority. To what extent can the provision of F-16 to Ukraine improve the position of the Ukrainian military at the front?
Oleksandr Tarnavskyi : Support from the air is always support. The interaction of air and ground components is a combination of strength, will and movement forward to victory. So I think it will be a success.
BBC : Because there are opinions that this is really late help, that these planes were needed in the summer before the counteroffensive. And this, in fact, is one of the reasons why the counterattack did not bring such results, since there was no advantage and support in the air.
Oleksandr Tarnavskyi : There was no advantage in the air not because there was no F-16, but because there are other factors. So I said that there are forces and means that, unfortunately, we did not have at that time to counter the air forces of the Russian Federation. It still remains with us. This is one of the main reasons - the task of strikes by both aircraft and kamikaze drones. And I think with the acquisition of these assets, the Air Force will become stronger, and we will be more active with their support.
About the mood of the military
BBC : Do you lack people or lack of strength, because the mobilization in Ukraine is not giving the desired results. What is your situation with this?
Oleksandr Tarnavskyi : Well, you know, there is always a lack of resources - both human and technical. This is in all military units and groups. And no matter how many resources there are, it is still not enough. The fact that in order to win this war we really need additional forces and means - we all understand this very well. Because those people who perform tasks today, they have such a concept as fatigue. Therefore, they need to be replaced. As in sports matches, in football this change takes place - exactly the same here.
And when we don't have a replacement resource, it's, unfortunately, a drain on the staff. Moral fatigue sets in during combat missions. And here the skills and abilities of each commander will be of great use. Replace, replace, react somewhere. Both infantrymen and cooks or locksmiths are needed and important at the front. Everyone has to do their job. Therefore, today is difficult, but we continue to complete the tasks.
BBC : You communicate a lot with the military, what can you say about their morale? Because now there are so many problems: it is not known when the demobilization will take place, conflicts in the top management between Zelensky and Zaluzhny, and so on... How do the military perceive all this, what do they say?
Oleksandr Tarnavskyi : First of all, the army is outside politics, outside the conversations that revolve around the army. I don't see any problems or any conflicts between one or another official. Neither I nor the military are interested in it.
Regarding the moral state - yes, some lose it, some maintain it. There is such a concept here - psychological help, moral help. There is fatigue somewhere - we take appropriate steps to prompt and support. The support of a friend, the support of loved ones works very well. That's why today, how we come out of this issue - somewhere vacation, somewhere rested. You know, it's easier to beat your father in a group.
And the whole situation that is happening around - you know, it's not our problem. Therefore, we have no problems. If someone has - as they say, solve them yourself...
BBC : The New Year is coming soon. What are your expectations, forecasts? What do you think will happen at the front?
Oleksandr Tarnavskyi : I think that the next year will be perhaps even more difficult. Because we must end hostilities and liberate our territories. And the closer we get to accomplishing this task, the main goal of reaching our borders, it will be even more difficult. The enemy knows about this and will do everything to prevent us from accomplishing this task.
Therefore, as they say, we are lucky, but for them, they made their choice. That is why I say that the year will be difficult.
BBC : Do you think it is realistic to end the war next year?
Oleksandr Tarnavskyi : I never ask the question of "ending the war". The question is to win. Because you can end the war in different ways. For us, the military, this is a victory.
BBC : Recently, your name has been mentioned in the media among those who may be changed. How do you feel about it? You are ready?
Oleksandr Tarnavskyi : I will tell you that I have been changing my life since childhood. He graduated from school, went to study at a military educational institution and constantly changed his status. Platoon, company, battalion commander. Today he is the commander. I don't know if they want to change it. I am ready for all conditions.
